This episode focuses on ways to create an online community and use group projects to offer authentic assessments in nutrition courses.

Transcript

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Caleb Curfman: All right? Well, welcome.

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Caleb Curfman: Angie, to the podcast. I would like to begin by just asking, what is some of your teaching experience. What are some of the things that you have done so far? And what is coming up next?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Hi, Caleb, thanks for having me here. I’m so excited to be with you in your podcast. Today. so teaching experience, I started out about. well, we’re so years ago with university of North Dakota. I was teaching with their certified dietary managers program there. It’s a certificate program. And then I also did some adjunct work there for a semester.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I went on, and I worked with Northland in East Grand Forks for little over 8 years. And that was as the program director for the fully online dietetic technician program. And now I’m with neutrco. And we are developing a fully online graduate degree. That’s a future education model. and so what that means is that

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Dr. Angie Brekken: the people can come into the program and with any Bachelor of Science Degree and complete their graduate degree, their Master’s degree, and while they’re doing that, do the supervised practice so that they can become a registered dietitian. And nutrio also has a dynamic internship, and that is separate from. And in addition to this new program that we are that we’re working on

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Caleb Curfman: fantastic. I I wanted to ask specifically what you know, what’s next, because you are doing a lot of really exciting things. And I had the privilege to to work with Angie. So listeners In some of the professional development work at Northland. And it was wonderful. And I wanted to have her on today because

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Caleb Curfman: she does a lot of work and and has a lot of work with building community in classes. And that’s something we all strive to do. But specifically in the online environment, creating and building community and be a challenge. And so would I be able to, as we kind of get going here. just ask what are some of the

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Caleb Curfman: the reasons or or ways that got you into teaching online the way you did put another way.

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Caleb Curfman: did you have any experience taking any classes online that maybe both helped you decide what you wanted to do, and also show you what you did not want to do going into the teaching.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Yeah, that’s a great question. so yes. My first degree was a a brick and mortar program at the University of Minnesota.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: but all of my other degrees have been fully online programs. So I have a lot of experience being the on the opposite end as the as the online learner

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Dr. Angie Brekken: and with that I saw a lot of things that really worked well for students, classes that were set up for student success. Things were easy to find. classes were set up consistently from one class to the next. So you knew what to expect when you were walking into it. And then there were some classes that

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Dr. Angie Brekken: maybe weren’t put together the best but still great teachers. But maybe they the setup wasn’t the best with the online learning platform. So with that, I kind of

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Dr. Angie Brekken: experience that you know, digging and trying to find what you’re looking for. And it can be really frustrating for students. So that’s kind of my goal when setting up the online online, sources is to make things consistent, to make things easy to find. I want the students spending time on content rather than searching. So that’s kind of my my main goal. When I start setting up classes, how can I make this easier for the student

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Caleb Curfman: it it it reminds me of something I was just telling somebody else this whole idea that we’re having a conversation about

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Caleb Curfman: difficulty in college and and challenges, and I said, I want my students to in a good way grapple with or struggle with the content.

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Caleb Curfman: I don’t want them to struggle with, where do I find the reading? And and it’s that whole, that whole idea of of how do we provide a.

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Caleb Curfman: a, a class

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Caleb Curfman: layout that allows our students to to be able to grow and use that that material and not be discouraged before they find it. And and so I I really think, and that’s something that you know. I also did

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Caleb Curfman: my first degree brick and mortar. And then beyond that, I did online. And so I I also have a little bit of the experience of what is that like? What are some of those things? And I think it can be very helpful

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Caleb Curfman: as as an instructor. and so I guess a little mini recommendation I’m going to give right in the middle of the episode here is, if you ever have the opportunity to take an online class? A lot of us are teaching in places where we have the ability to get tuition waivers things of that nature. you can learn a lot, both the content but also kind of the structure of an online class. But really, what I want to talk about with you, Angie, is the way

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Caleb Curfman: that you create and build community within your classes. this is something I know, both from a I I’ve had students that you have had that have commented about some of these cool projects. But also you’ve done some professional development pieces talking about this. And so just kind of interested in. First of all.

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Caleb Curfman: why do you feel

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Caleb Curfman: the the community building is so important within the online classroom? and then kind of what is. What is the main thing that you do to try to start that right at the beginning of the semester?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think that it’s really easy to feel like you’re all alone, kind of floating in cyberspace somewhere when when you’re in an online class, if there isn’t that feeling of community, you know, right away off, right off the get go.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: So being able to to build that community, letting them know that they’re not alone, that they have peers that are a lot of them in the same boat, you know, maybe working, maybe have kids

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Dr. Angie Brekken: doing their homework really late at night. so having that support system from your fellow classmates and know that your instructor isn’t just somebody scary on the opposite end of the computer. It’s somebody who really wants you to succeed.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think that sets the class up for success. some of the things that I like to do.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Recently, I’ve gotten more into kind of a audio visual kind of an introduction instead of the typing out where you from, you know, are you in the class things like that. So you you using something like voicethread or flip grid so that we’re able to see each other, that we’re able to hear each other. we can know how to refer to one another what what they want to be called

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Dr. Angie Brekken: in classes. My name would show up as Angela and I I like being called Angie. So you know, having that that communication there that

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Dr. Angie Brekken: the the names how to pronounce them. I think that’s really important with that first step in getting to know each other. And you know, being online, we don’t see each other face to face. So this is our opportunity to to really get to

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Dr. Angie Brekken: know each other in an asynchronous manner. that, I think, really helps with that community aspect of a class.

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Caleb Curfman: I I don’t require a a video, but I will often ask students if they’re comfortable to at least share a picture if they want to share a video that’s fantastic. but

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Caleb Curfman: it it just humanizes it in a way. And the other thing that I really like about your your example of of hearing the the students is

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Caleb Curfman: a lot of times. Not only are are we not using the name that is preferred, perhaps, but a lot of times. We don’t know how to pronounce names and being able to hear how the name is pronounced it. And you might be thinking, Well, it’s an online class. Why do you need to know that

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Caleb Curfman: as an instructor it’s very important. One of the things that that I like to do is do a a quick video at the beginning of a week or at the recap of a discussion. And I want to be able to say.

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Caleb Curfman: You know, I really like I I want to refer everybody to what Angie put in the discussion. and I want to be able to say that and not say I want to refer you where, Angela, but because that’s not what you want, right? And and so it’s it’s being able to say those things it it brings us in in a, in a whole other way. And so a tip, I’m gonna add kind of going off of that with the with the audio

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Caleb Curfman: is, I

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Caleb Curfman: have started asking students to spell out their names phonetically in their opening discussion. And so how does it sound? Is there a way so that way we can try to understand that. And along with that, I know you have been good about this for quite a while. You did some professional development on it, you know, asking if people are are willing if they if they’d share their pronouns as well. And so I think I think that’s a great way to get the class started

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Caleb Curfman: and and so that’s kind of the that

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Caleb Curfman: good first moment. But we all know that we can’t stop.

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Caleb Curfman: Some of us have tried to stop, but we know we can’t stop after that first discussion. I guarantee your first discussion, post or flipgrid, whatever it is, it’s going to have more interaction.

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Caleb Curfman: then a lot of the others. Because you lose that sense of community. It becomes very like you said, kind of on an island. Right? I’m I’m typing my response.

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Caleb Curfman: and I guess I’ll reply to 2 people, or whatever happens to be so, how do you continue to embrace community throughout your class?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think that especially when you’re using the audio video like flipgrid or voicethread for the beginning, as kind of that low stakes.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: use of the technology. And you know, using that while we get to know each other better and then continuing it, continuing to use that for another Another conversation or 2 during the course. so that we’re still seeing each other and hearing each other.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: you know, setting up in some of my classes, I have students work in pairs where they’ll have a team member that will read over a draft of

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Dr. Angie Brekken: an assignment and provide some feedback, and they’ll do that for each other so that they’re they’re getting to know each other. They’re working on that teamwork. They’re working on reading through other people’s work. which we know, the more we read the better we become at writing. so it it’s it’s a benefit for both of them. and still build that community. And then if you can switch those groups up a little bit as you go through, so that they’re working with with

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Dr. Angie Brekken: more people throughout the class that can really build those connections in an online class. and a lot of people don’t really like big group work. But the team work is a little bit more palatable. It seems it may be a little bit easier to get the groups together or the team together than when you’re trying to put together a big group of like 4 or 5

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Caleb Curfman: facilitate that as the instructor and I’m meeting, not necessarily by by choosing. But

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Caleb Curfman: how do you get the the assignment to those students? And how is it weighted in their grade? Kind of a, you know? Take a magnifying glass on that assignment because I I’m just interested how you you share that. So then, if you and I were going to have each other’s assignment to read through. How do I find that? Or where is that located?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: we? I’ve just been using email it. It seems to be a little bit easier than trying to figure out different dropboxes and things like that in the learning management system. so the student will email each other work together through the email through the school email. I ask them to use that so that it’s official

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Dr. Angie Brekken: and for waiting. It’s it’s it’s just they do it or they don’t. and

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Dr. Angie Brekken: it’s I haven’t really had a problem yet. Students that just absolutely don’t do it. so I guess I’ll have to cross that bridge when I get to it, but it’s it’s just

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I’ve had good feedback from students. Maybe there have been occasions where a a paper was given to their peer, and day late, or or something like that. But For the most part it’s been working really well.

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Caleb Curfman: good, and and other points associated with

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Caleb Curfman: with doing the Peer Review.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: No, it’s just part of their rough draft.
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Dr. Angie Brekken: I have them turn in

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Dr. Angie Brekken: their rough draft, and then a copy of their work that they did. you know, feedback that they gave to their peer. And it’s all part of the the total, rough, rough draft grade. So it’s it’s basically you just did it. And

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Dr. Angie Brekken: have that experience of providing feedback and mentorship to your fellow student.

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Caleb Curfman: Oh, fantastic! So the last kind of practical thing I’m thinking of, and it it would be. So I send mine to a student

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Caleb Curfman: as a student.

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Caleb Curfman: And, Angie, you decide that you aren’t going to give me feedback. Is there a way that I can ask for somebody else to do that, or a way that I can. you know, if I really want to get some of that feedback

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Dr. Angie Brekken: like, I said. I haven’t come across that bridge yet. I think that that’s something that I definitely need need to look at, moving forward. to have them be able to reach out to somebody else. But I’ve been doing the the peer sharing for 8 years now, and I haven’t come across yet. So that that’s

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Dr. Angie Brekken: kind of a a positive for the students in my program. I think that they’ve been just so diligent at working at at their assignments and making sure that they get everything done the way it’s supposed to be done.

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Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think that’s that’s a a point. As well. You know you are working with it. It it’s not. It wasn’t necessarily cohort, but it was a group that is in a program which I I’m coming from it from the perspective of somebody that’s teaching it a Us. Survey course, where I might have people from all over the place.

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Caleb Curfman: And and so, you know, and it’s not even necessarily that they don’t want to. Maybe there is a a conflict thing. So yeah, I that’s I. I think that is really interesting. How, how that’s worked, you know I I’ve heard and and I’ve I’ve seen and and we know, like you said, people do so much better if they can be looking at others work understanding how they do things.

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Caleb Curfman: And so I I I do like that. I think I’m gonna try to implement some form of that this, this next semester on on a small scale, just to see how it works. And we can kinda share notes after that, for sure. But you know, yeah,

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Caleb Curfman: So that’s one way you do it. And another way. I know that you have done this because I’ve I’ve been, you know, able to reap the benefits of it. it is a newsletter

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Caleb Curfman: that you have students put together. but I understand there’s other things that they have done, and so would you be willing to share a little bit about your your group project that you have students do even in the online environment.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Sure. so this is one of my favorite projects that they do as part of their community practicum. So the students. They, we start a

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Google document where the students will put down a list of 8 topics that they are interested in presenting about. And so the reason we start with the Google document is so that we make sure that there isn’t a lot of doubling up on topics. And people can see what their peers are going to be presenting about as well.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: And so throughout the course of the semester, the students are

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Dr. Angie Brekken: doing research. They are putting together handouts. making 1 min psas for a local radio station and then a 10 to 15 min presentation recorded presentation. That is all put together into a Microsoft sway. document that we send out to the whole Northland community. So that’s

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Dr. Angie Brekken: you know, working each each week the students would be working on getting in a part of that assignment so that things don’t seem so overwhelming. And then at the end, that’s when we send it out to the

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Northland community as a whole.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, I I really like that because it it allows students to work on some things throughout the semester and more of a formative nature before. you know, using assessment terms, you know, giving them this big summative thing where you’re okay. We’re gonna put this all together and share it to the public. so how?

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Caleb Curfman: How do you think? having that external audience? how do you think that that changes the work that the students are doing. I I just say this because

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Caleb Curfman: it’s phenomenal work that comes out. And so I’m just curious if you think that that external audience, maybe, is something that helps students. Maybe it’s something that scares them. So do you have any experiences with kind of helping students along to get ready to share their work, and then just kind of your thoughts on if that work knowing that it’s going to be shared. If you’ve seen a change in in maybe the work, or or the amount of effort, or anything of that nature.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I I would definitely say that a lot of students come in, being a little bit intimidated at the thought of having to share their work with the with the community, and maybe feeling a little intimidated that they need to make sure that every reference that they have is up to date, and they’re using the right information because they don’t want to lead people the wrong way. so at first there can be a little bit of of

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Dr. Angie Brekken: nerves going on for the students, or, you know, by this time in the program. They’ve made other presentations that they’ve shared in class in discussions. So they’re typically pretty familiar with the technology by this point for the recording. And you know, using Powerpoints or Microsoft’s way, or whatever they like to use to present.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: So, you know, getting getting that fast and frequent feedback, I think, is really important, so that, you know, when they submit one assignment or one presentation, I’m able to give them feedback within a short amount of time.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: so that they know what they need to maybe work on before they record their next sec session. so that that frequent feedback having the rubric to look at, I think, is really important, because that helps the students, you know, have those check boxes. Did I cover this? Is it the right amount of time did I include my references? What are my slides look like? Are they all cluttered, or are they, you know, nice to look at things like that.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: so I think that that really helps with the nerves, too. And by the end, by their eighth one that they’ve submitted typically they’re

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Dr. Angie Brekken: fantastic. They’re doing professional quality work. they’re reporting that they feel a lot better talking with the community and being able to present their their thoughts and ideas and recommendations and things like that based off of of of the evidence. And they really grow a lot from that first week in class to the final week.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, I I like, you know, a few things. I I picked up there. One was. you’re going back to that.

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Caleb Curfman: you know, spending time in an online class. What did that feel like having those directions so clear to you? having the rubric having the the structure? Well, second of all you know, you’re talking about having an active and engaged instructor, somebody that is

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Caleb Curfman: that guide as they’re working on these projects. and and finally, you know you. You talk about this grouping and and bringing it out to the community. What a wonderful way to do authentic assessment

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Caleb Curfman: things that these students are going to be doing out in the world? when they when they go on in in these programs? they’re going to be providing these different types of of speeches, maybe presentations, or at the very least, they’re probably going to be doing some pamphlets, some other information and just being able to talk with a with a wider audience. I think that’s fantastic. so

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Caleb Curfman: I I

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Caleb Curfman: I agree with what you’re talking about about the the importance of having these these specific structural moments where? Okay, here’s what you need to do. Here’s how you’re going to do it. as far as the assignments, and as far as that goes.

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Caleb Curfman: how does the project? How do your projects fit into the overall grading? You know, scale of your class you. This is assessed without the stress. So I I always like to ask a little bit about from the instructor side. what are some things that you do to help facilitate this type of class, and not be over overwhelmed by the projects coming in things of that nature.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: So with with grading of these assignments. It’s it’s all

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Dr. Angie Brekken: in the grade book. I grade the individual brochure Psa and the the presentation. So those are all done in chunks and so there isn’t a cumulative final grade for the item that we send out. it’s it, I great each individual piece so that it’s not, you know. You get to the end, and you have this

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Dr. Angie Brekken: massive assignment where you know half of your grade. I like to break it up so that it doesn’t seem so overwhelming to the student, and that it’s

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I. I feel it’s more fair grading

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Dr. Angie Brekken: chunked like that than having it all be one grade at the end. And then students are also able to see how they’re progressing through the semester and have a better idea of their grades. you know, from week one. So

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I I really like, I’m gonna just jump in, because

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Caleb Curfman: that is, you know, really where the science of teaching and learning is is going right now, the scholarship of teaching and learning it. It’s talking about. Why do we need to have these huge high stakes, massive assignments. When, like what you’re doing here you are are providing feedback. You are assessing the individual assignments, working their way up. That’s something that

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Caleb Curfman: you know in in certain fields. It’s been common practice. but I’m just for you, for example, in my my field of history. a lot of times it was. You take 3

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Caleb Curfman: essays, essay tests, and maybe a paper. And that’s the class grade. And and I really like how you are are still requiring a a very substantial kind of capstone assignment if you will, but you are providing the feedback and and allowing students to work on it as they go. I I think.

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Caleb Curfman: you know. Well, not. Only I think I I know from the research that this is a very effective way for for students to to know where they’re at that. That’s a huge part of it, right? And and

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Caleb Curfman: I’m gonna keep going back to the fact that.

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Caleb Curfman: you know there’s nothing wrong with with brick and mortar having your all your education break and order. But I do feel like I was, and I I know you’ve voices, too, but at a bit of an advantage to to kind of see the world through the online perspective and see how that that has kind of changed in that way. And so I I think that’s fantastic. And and you know it. It’s been very interesting to hear how that comes together.

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Caleb Curfman: What are some of the the ways? that you have seen

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engagement in your classes?

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Caleb Curfman: Kind of translate, and it might just be anecdotal, I understand. Translate to to kind of how the students are successful in the class. Do you? Do you see that at all, as far as the more community engagement you can get. And I’m talking about class community. So engaging with you, engaging with

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Caleb Curfman: peers engaging with the materials. Have you seen how that has benefited students. As it’s gone forward.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think so. I think that they feel that there is

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Dr. Angie Brekken: more support.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: like we were talking about earlier can feel really lonely when you’re doing online work. And and maybe you feel that you don’t have anybody to reach out to. Or maybe your friends aren’t familiar with what you’re learning about. So you don’t really have that support system. So being able to have that in classes, I think is

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Dr. Angie Brekken: really important. I’ve had students that

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Dr. Angie Brekken: you know, they set up study groups outside of class. This isn’t something that I initiated. It’s something that they

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Dr. Angie Brekken: wanted to do to create that community, too. And and I support that setting up Google documents for students to put their contact information if they want to, totally to them if they want to or not. so that community is built there too. that, they can reach out and text each other if they need to Or you know, I’ve heard students talking about

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Dr. Angie Brekken: reaching out to each other and saying.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: You know, can you look over this assignment for me. Real quick one is when I don’t even assign it as a peer review. Just, you know, having that feedback from a a peer So, being able to reach out to each other, you know, after that initial peer review, and understanding what it’s about and then having them do it on their own. I think that that’s

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think that’s a really good practice. And and like we were talking about with the presentations that they’re putting together for this group project in their community. nutrition.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: it’s a supervised learning.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: it’s stuff that they’re going to be doing when they’re you know, working. I don’t like the phrase, but in the real world So when they’re out there and they’re working, and, you know, reaching out to peers and asking, what do you think about this or Do you think I should change this? Or, you know, having that feedback and being able to practice that in class. I think that’s that’s really important in building community and your support system.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, a. And I think a lot of students, including myself.

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Caleb Curfman: it was kind of a new thought. When I when I got to college level classes, I’m trying to think back because it was always, you know, do your work on your own. Do your own work? Do you order? What does that mean? And and to be able to to help students and and see that you can help each other out, you know, doing your own work. Just means don’t copy your neighbor. It doesn’t mean don’t work with others. That’s we do that every day as as working professionals. and so

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I think that is a really valuable

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Caleb Curfman: piece to the class. And what I love about it, is it? It’s not even really

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Caleb Curfman: it wasn’t the main focus. It was just an added piece to the rough draft. And look at how that has grown to be something that many, many use. from that point on. So I think that is, that is fantastic. so you know, as we’re getting closer to the end. Here. I do want to talk a little bit about another side of assessment that you work with, and so it’s a little bit of a transition here for for listeners. But

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Caleb Curfman: you also do a lot of work on assessment at kind of a birds eye level, and that would be with curriculum design and looking at ways to, you know, crediting bodies and all of those pieces. And so

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Caleb Curfman: you know what is the project that you are working on. Now, what are some of the things that you’re doing? And for those of us that might be in programs that require? some of these different documentations and stuff. You know. What is some advice that you have for people?

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Caleb Curfman: that that do a lot of that work. I’m fortunate where I you know in in my history department I don’t have to worry about that as much, but many of our technical listeners do, and so do you have any tips, as far as you know, working through that kind of documentation, and just being able to to accomplish those goals?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: I think a big part of this is

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Dr. Angie Brekken: with accreditation, especially is taking it a piece at a time, because by the end of these reports it, some of I’ve written one before that was close to 500 pages. So it’s it’s a lot of work. And so, taking it

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Dr. Angie Brekken: little pieces by little pieces, And checking. I I like to. I’m a list maker, so I like to check things off. It makes me feel like I’ve accomplished something. So checking things off the list, and and getting that document together

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Dr. Angie Brekken: in in smaller ways and smaller chunks, kind of like we were talking about in class, you know all our chunks, and you come to to your, you know, culminating report at the end. but

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Dr. Angie Brekken: just kind of looking at like right now with nutrients. I’m working with Graceland University, and we’re forming a partnership for this graduate program. And

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Dr. Angie Brekken: you know, if all goes as planned, we’ll be able to start admitting students into the program in about a year or so, and going through the the ascend accreditation. It’s a lot of work planning all of you know what it? What is graciously going to do? What is nutrient going to do? What are we going to provide to these students?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: how are we going to have the supervised practice or supervised experiential learning.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: for the students. This is going to be for students across the United States. So you know, figuring out locations and things like that for or how we’re going to get those locations for students once the program begins, and

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Dr. Angie Brekken: for accreditation. You know, looking at what classes do we need to to meet these

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Dr. Angie Brekken: competencies that need to be completed?

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Dr. Angie Brekken: what assignments and go in those classes. What are our objectives with those classes? So it’s it’s a lot of work. And I find it really fun. It’s it’s it’s exciting for me right now to, you know, be creating this

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Dr. Angie Brekken: this program that’s going to help students meet their educational goals, because for me, I I couldn’t go back to school. If there wasn’t online learning, I wouldn’t be where I am right now if there was an online learning. So I’m really excited to offer that again to students.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: now, who are who will be going for their registered dietition degree? and before at Northland, when I was doing that for dietic technician students. So it’s, it’s just an exciting time to be able to look at these different pieces that need all need to fit together and

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Dr. Angie Brekken: create a program that will create 6 for the students

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Caleb Curfman: from a very

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Caleb Curfman: microscopic view of a class. Looking at how peer reviews were happening all the way up to the very top, looking at accreditation. It has been wonderful to get to talk with you, and and just kind of hear what’s going on, and and and some wonderful ideas of community.

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Caleb Curfman: but also wonderful ideas of how to continue through a class, how to work on curriculum, how to provide these opportunities. You know, some. Sometimes when people are

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Caleb Curfman: creating a class when instructors are creating, a class is okay, what do I have to? What do they have to do right. And and I really like how you are using the language of you know

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Caleb Curfman: they will. You know they can do this. They can try that you’re providing this place for the students to really shine. And and I think that’s a very valuable lesson we can all take something from. And so thank you so much for joining me. if people have questions about either the assignments or anything, or maybe you’re gonna have some a program that’s gonna reach out. You know, how do you think accrediting is fun? How do you? Whatever it happens to be? curriculum building?

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Caleb Curfman: how can people reach you.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Sure email will probably be the easiest way. My email address is Dr. brecken@gmail.com. So do C. T. O. R. E K. K, e n@gmail.com

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Caleb Curfman: fantastic, and you know I know many listeners have reached out some of the guests and and had some more specific questions go through. But it has been wonderful to have you on. I am excited to see what what happens next for you, and and best of luck with all of the curriculum building and everything you are working on. So let’s talk again, and thank you so much for joining.

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Dr. Angie Brekken: Thanks, Caleb.