In this episode, Thomas gives valuable tips and ideas to make assessment more manageable while providing the choice and flexibility needed to follow the principals of Universal Design for Learning (UDL).

Thomas J. Tobin helped found the University of Wisconsin-Madison Center for Teaching, Learning, & Mentoring (CTLM); he is an internationally recognized scholar, author, and speaker on technology- mediated education—especially copyright, teaching evaluation, academic integrity, and accessibility/universal design for learning.

He holds a master’s and Ph.D. in English literature, an information science master’s, and certifications in project management (PMP), online teaching (MOT), Quality Matters (QM), accessibility (CPACC), and academic leadership (Penn State ALA).

Named to Ed Tech Magazine’s 2020 Educational Technology Influencers “Dean’s List”, honored with the 2022 Wagner Award for Outstanding Leadership in Distance Learning Administration, and named by Eduflow in 2023 as one of the world’s Top 100 Learning Influencers, Tom serves on the editorial boards of InSight: A Journal of Scholarly Teaching and the Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration.

His books include

 Evaluating Online Teaching: Implementing Best Practices (2015).

 The Copyright Ninja (2017).

 Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: Universal Design for Learning in Higher Education (2018).

 Going Alt-Ac: A Guide to Alternative Academic Careers (2020).

 UDL for FET Practitioners: Implementing Universal Design for Learning in Irish Further Education and Training (2021).

Find him on Twitter @ThomasJTobin, and at thomasjtobin.com.

Show Transcript
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Caleb Curfman: All right. So welcome Thomas Tobin, to this, podcast where we’re really looking at assessment. And how do we.

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Caleb Curfman: you know, assess without stress. And I use that title for many reasons. it’s stress for instructors, stress for students, just for institutions. But you know, really, before we get too far into anything. I just want to ask a few questions. first of all, you know

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Caleb Curfman: what sparked your interest you. You’ve talked a lot about Udl in the past. That’s been a real passion. But what really sparked your interest in Udl.

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Thomas J Tobin: Oh, thank you. Caleb, for having me on the podcast and Hello, listeners! I’m glad you are here, too.

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Thomas J Tobin: The genesis of my interest in universal design for learning or udl goes all the way back to 1997. It’s the early days of teaching with the Internet. And I was helping a 2 year college in Western Pennsylvania adopt blackboard version. One listeners. You can’t see all the gray hair on my head. It is totally earned.

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Thomas J Tobin: and I was working with a business instructor named Marty. Now Marty came to my office and he said. I want to teach online, but I think it’s a croc, and I don’t think it’s going to be useful. But I still want to have a job in 10 years. Can you help me figure this out.

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Thomas J Tobin: listeners? What you don’t know is that Mari had gone blind in his forties, due to complications from undiagnosed and so untreated diabetes. Now I’ll put air quotes here. Marty didn’t know how to be a blind person. He didn’t get around with a cane. He didn’t know braille or touch typing any of that. He had been a sighted person, and then he wasn’t.

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Thomas J Tobin: Now. I was a 20 something year old new staff member at this college. And so I said, Yeah, sure, I can help you. And Caleb, I said.

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Thomas J Tobin: You know, okay, Marty’s out of my office. I’ll go look, and the literature will save me. There’s got to be a how to on how to support faculty members with barriers like this. There was no literature. Right?

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Thomas J Tobin: By good chance I got connected through a couple of mutual acquaintances with Norm Coombs, C. O. Mbs, at Rochester Institute of Technology. Norm had been blind since birth. He was a nationwide advocate for the rights of people, with disabilities in higher education on the faculty and the student side of things.

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And Norm and I had a wonderful phone call which was essentially good luck, kid, and a few. Here are some things you can do kinds of things.

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Thomas J Tobin: But we were very successful in helping Marty to teach his online courses right? So we got him to sort of memorize the structure of early blackboard learning management system, and we through graduate students at him from a local university to be his eyes and ears

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Thomas J Tobin: when students would send in work or they type things on a discussion for them.

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Thomas J Tobin: The graduate students would read things out loud to Marty, and Marty would say, Oh, good point! Give that student some credit or say this to the student, and it worked really well for 3 semesters until I had a vice president standing in the doorway of my office, saying, We’ve got to shut Marty down.

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Thomas J Tobin: and I said, Why, we we we got it. We did it. And my vice president said, You realize that we’re violating furpa privacy laws like 7 here. And we had to stop

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Thomas J Tobin: that failure, though, really caused me to start seeing, taking a look around and thinking.

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Thomas J Tobin: If it was this challenging to support one person for one course. Who else are we not serving well, or maybe not serving at all?

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Thomas J Tobin: And I started to perceive that there were groups of people who just lived far away from campus and couldn’t come. People who had work responsibilities, caregiving family responsibilities, military service you name the reason why someone couldn’t find the time

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Thomas J Tobin: to focus on study. And they were there.

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Thomas J Tobin: So really the barriers that I started perceiving started with someone who had a disability barrier in his environment, and I rapidly came to understand that those weren’t the only barriers that people had when they enrolled or sometimes didn’t enroll with us in higher education.

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Thomas J Tobin: I got in touch with the folks at Cast CST. And these are the neuroscientists who came up with the idea of universal design for learning that if we think about the interactions that our students have with materials, that’s where everybody starts, but also with us as instructors, with support staffers with the community.

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Thomas J Tobin: Then if we can make more than one way for those interactions to happen, it gives learners voice choice belonging safety and agency, and those are the things that predict students. Success

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Thomas J Tobin: far better

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Thomas J Tobin: than your socioeconomic background. how much schooling you’ve had, whether you have a parent or a sibling who’s gone to college before

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Thomas J Tobin: all of those pale in comparison to do? You actually have the time? And if you have the time, can you actually get access to the materials and people and interactions that will help you be successful? So that’s how I got started. And I keep thinking, how can we provide quality learning experiences to the greatest number of learners while still providing strong support to the humans who are teaching them and keeping the quality of our education. High.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah. And that’s fantastic. I I just know everyone I’ve talked to that is very passionate about Udl. They all have kind of a passionate story like that. And so I I I do appreciate that.

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Caleb Curfman: mine comes from the fact that I was going to school with some students that could not afford the textbook, and also trying to. You know it was, do I eat? Or do I get my textbook? What do I do. And and so that really opened me into the oers, but also other ways of other ways of getting information to students. And so no, that’s that’s really interesting. And what I really want to focus in on today is

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Caleb Curfman: the way that

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Caleb Curfman: assessments can be great and how they can also be not so great And you know, in the last few episodes we’ve had this theme of looking at formative assessments, other other ways of doing things on the way. But I’m interested if you’d be able to talk a little bit about inclusive assessments. And how can we?

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Caleb Curfman: And I’m talking about the actual things in a class, right? So assessment can mean so many things in higher add, I’m talking about you’re taking this class. We need to show or demonstrate learning somehow. What are some ways to make that more inclusive? But I think it’s best to start out with. What are those barriers first, and then work our way through. So what are some of your thoughts on that? It’s a wonderful way to start framing the conversation because oftentimes, when we think about assessment, we think about

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Thomas J Tobin: a creditors, grades making sure that we’re being rigorous, and those things are all true and part of our landscape in higher education. At the same time, those are the end of the conversation.

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Thomas J Tobin: or at least they ought to be so. Universal. Design for learning is a framework for designing learning interactions based on the science of how we encode learning events in our brains.

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Thomas J Tobin: When we think about assessment.

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Thomas J Tobin: we can assess our students at 3 different points of the learning process. We can assess. How well are they getting engaged with the concepts, ideas, and practices that we want them to? And how well are they sticking with us. Do they give up, or do they say, Oh, I I’ll never get this, or do they continue and persevere even when things are challenging

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Thomas J Tobin: one of the things that I tell my faculty colleagues is that learning is supposed to be hard, right? It’s supposed to be challenging. College is supposed to be where you learn new things. On the other hand, it’s also where you’re allowed to fail at stuff and get things wrong and be confused without being penalized for that.

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Thomas J Tobin: And so when we think about engagement, that’s kind of the first part of assessment, and it’s one that we don’t often do assessment on so thinking about how to

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Thomas J Tobin: measure

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Thomas J Tobin: and how to respond. When students all catch on fire and they keep going, or when students get confused or they have an opportunity to not get it right, or play or practice. So I try not to grade everything, especially when students are learning.

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Thomas J Tobin: We can also grade them or assess them on how well they take in information the problem with most of our college instruction. And this is for all of you welding instructors as well as you history instructors

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Thomas J Tobin: is that we only give our students one way to get information. Hey? Read this article.

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Thomas J Tobin: read this chapter in the textbook, read this open educational resource. And it’s a whole bunch of text based reading. Every once in a while we’ll throw in a video. If there’s a process they need to understand, or something along those lines.

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Thomas J Tobin: The challenge with that is, not all of our students are strong readers, or they have habits of reading.

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Thomas J Tobin: Not all of our students can actually get access to those materials in a written format in a timely way.

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and most of our students, when they have 20 min to study or prepare or practice.

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Thomas J Tobin: They don’t have access to the content that they need so universal design for learning asks us to give information to our students in multiple ways. And we can then assess the

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Thomas J Tobin: how well are our students taking in that information.

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Thomas J Tobin: So if we give our students a text chapter to read. But we also say to them, here’s how to download the read it out loud to me, app on your mobile phone, go into the apple store or the Google play store. And look at one of the literally thousands of free apps that will read out a word process document or a Pdf. To you.

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Thomas J Tobin: And then our students who are driving from home to drop off their kids at school and then going to work picking up the kids and then driving to campus to take a night class with you

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Thomas J Tobin: that drive time can be listening to the article time. Sometimes those choices about how they take in information.

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Thomas J Tobin: the circumstances are dictated for them. It’s not really a matter of preference.

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and we can also assess how our students take action and express themselves. This is what we always think about when we think about assessment taking a test, doing a demonstration, writing a paper

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Thomas J Tobin: having a a final project for a course, and if we offer students more than one way to show what they know.

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Thomas J Tobin: they have that voice choice belonging safety and agency that I talked about earlier, and they’re much more likely to catch on fire a little bit, or see why and how things fit in where they’re learning new concepts and applying them and putting them into their already existing frameworks.

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And so it can be as simple as write me the 5 page essay, or turn the phone on your camera to good use and do a Selfie video as though you are a news reporter.

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Thomas J Tobin: The key here is construct relevance. That’s a term from cognitive psychology where we make sure that what we are asking our students to demonstrate is actually what we’re assessing

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and making sure that we’re not asking them to do things that aren’t what we’re assessing or grading. So if I give my students a word problem.

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Thomas J Tobin: I want to make sure that they understand all the words in the word problem. And so I’m not. you know, in a hidden way, assessing their reading, comprehension level along with the content that I’m asking them to do.

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Thomas J Tobin: for example, in the the book reach everyone teach everyone on universal design for learning that Kirsten dealing and I wrote, we had an example from an art history professor who had a fairly complicated digital art assignment and the directions for it were 3 pages of just text, and he wondered why some of his students really did it well, and some of them just never got it.

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Thomas J Tobin: What he did was he went back, and he went through the directions from a learner perspective. He asked all of his students to deconstruct the assignment and to rewrite it in their own words. What he found was several parts of his instructions weren’t really intelligible to some of his students.

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Thomas J Tobin: and he recreated that so that there was a text based version. And he did a quick video overview of, here’s what I’d like you to do

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Thomas J Tobin: now. His students had a choice about how they took in the information, and his students had choices about how they demonstrated that digital art project and his assessment scores went up. Which is what we want for all of our students.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, I’m going to stop it there quick, because that’s a really good point of

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Caleb Curfman: you know how we’re creating our assignments is as important as anything else. And and and

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Caleb Curfman: the idea of providing choice not only what the the product is, whether it’s the a podcast, or a video or a paper, but also providing options on how to get that information right? The idea of the explainer video. I think you know, I I think to Youtube, the amount of times I go to Youtube when I need to figure something out. I was just fixing a fire pit in my backyard, one of those propane

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Thomas J Tobin: ones. Youtube helped me a lot more than the instructions, you know, just because it was easier for me to see it right?

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Caleb Curfman: And so I really like how you’re putting that focus where it should be honestly on the faculty to say, Okay, here’s how we can structure this, and it’s going to help us get the outcome. We’re looking for

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Thomas J Tobin: this. Oh, so yeah. And then one thing to note here is, if you’re going to try this, you will have colleagues who say, why are you doing that extra work?

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Thomas J Tobin: And the answer you give them listeners is, I’m taking an intentional action here to make more than one way to get information more than one way for the students to demonstrate their skills and their their knowledge.

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Thomas J Tobin: I’m taking intentional action here so that I don’t have the same email 700 times, asking me to clarify the directions for the assignment, so that I don’t have everyone in the class taking a midterm examination and getting one concept wrong as a group. And then I have to re teach. This is work that pays us back. It lowers barriers, not just for our students, but for us as well.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, fantastic. And no, I I definitely agree. I’ve been

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working to to make my classes as udl friendly as possible.

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Caleb Curfman: and I will tell you that by the you know the time I’ve taught it twice. Now, if it’s a new class, I’m using that.

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Caleb Curfman: It’s a lot of work in the front end.

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Caleb Curfman: But then it works so well. And you can. You can use these things and and and the way that students

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Caleb Curfman: what it one student told me it was very powerful, and it stuck with me. He said.

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Caleb Curfman: I like that. You were testing me on what I knew, not testing me on how I understood the instructions, and that is exactly what we were looking for, right? And and and so 1 one place I want to take this before I ask you for some tips of kind of getting started is

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Caleb Curfman: when we have assessments. I’ve been working with. some different instructors at different institutions, and a lot of people are coming to the conclusion. We assess way too much.

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Caleb Curfman: And I’m wondering. And and this may be a you know this could be a couple of hours on that. But is there a way that you could? I was curious what your thoughts are on, that. You know, you talked a little bit about having some ongraded assessments getting things going? but just in the framework of time and student time.

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Caleb Curfman: How do we combat some of that where some might say, well, that’s busy work. If you’re not grading me on it, which is something I’ve heard before you, what are some ways we can check our classes in that instance.

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Thomas J Tobin: Oh, excellent question! So the this helps us see assessment in a different light, considering the many challenges that are out there with the the brand new one is generative, artificial intelligence. Right? You put a prompt in, and it spits an essay back out to you, or you know people just gatekeeping or guarding the ivory tower. You’ve all heard listeners, your colleagues saying I’m not gonna dumb my content down. I need to keep the rigor high in my course, and you know, if they can’t hack it, then they can’t hack it in the real world.

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Thomas J Tobin: The challenge for me is one. College is not meant to be the real world. This is meant to be preparation for when you get into your career, and when you’re out there in the real world surprise, surprise.

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Thomas J Tobin: We adjust things all the time. Hey? Can I have more time on this? This is taking more effort than I needed. Can we bring more resources in? And the answer is always, yes. Let’s figure out what we should do in order to be successful in business whatever. That is.

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Thomas J Tobin: So when we think about assessment, we can get caught up in

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Thomas J Tobin: guarding our reputations, thinking that we have to shut the door hard, and only the few worthy people can make it through

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Thomas J Tobin: for me. I approach it by saying, all of my students got into the institution. They qualified to be here. They might be struggling, but that might be for a variety of reasons. Maybe they don’t have models yet. They don’t have a parent or a sibling who’s gone to college and can say, Oh, by the way, here are some tips.

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or they they haven’t seen the level of rigor or the advanced level of thinking that I’m sharing with them in my class, and they’re struggling.

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Thomas J Tobin: So when we think about assessment I’d like to suggest that we have created a problem for ourselves that we can undo, and that is, we have created a problem of grading every tiny little thing.

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How often listeners have you been at the end of the semester, and said, What fool assigned them for essays to write over the course of 10 weeks, and now I have to grade, all of them. And the fool, of course, is B, right.

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Thomas J Tobin: Here’s the challenge. Are you worried about students cheating when they’re interacting beyond the eyes of the college or the university. Well, we’ve been addressing this since the early 19 nineties, and we haven’t been doing it with remote proctoring or browser lockdown software or plagiarism scanning software. There’s only one thing that works

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Thomas J Tobin: lowering student anxiety and pressure. Now, this is not to say that we should lower the quality or challenge of the materials. Universal design for learning asks us to keep the level of rigor in our content area at a high level.

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Thomas J Tobin: What I’m doing right now is, I’m lowering the barrier to getting involved in the interaction and the assessment. In the first place, students are not out there cheating any more than they usually do, although one thing that could increase, that is, putting students into a bind where they get tempted like shifting our learning environments with new rules and social norms to adapt in person learning to.

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Thomas J Tobin: You know the the COVID-19 pandemic or remote work, or just people who have work responsibilities, and they need to shift where and how they’re responding to our learning interactions.

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But plainly, folks, students are not are most tempted to act as honestly when they feel anxiety and pressure. Most of us don’t act on these temptations, but we all have our tipping points. Our current conditions can create both anxiety and pressure.

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Thomas J Tobin: The best thing we can all do, regardless of the subjects we teach or support, is to offer our students options, voice and choice. And I’ll here’s 4 things that you can do tomorrow. Everybody.

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Thomas J Tobin: one lower time pressure.

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Thomas J Tobin: Don’t put time limits on your activities, including your examinations where it’s possible. Allow students choices and how they show what they know, like doing an in-class exam or an alternate version online

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Thomas J Tobin: and design your empty learning management system shelves with samples like this. Now, some people will say, but we have to finish the exam in 50 min, because that’s how much time my class takes.

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Thomas J Tobin: And the response to that is, that’s a scheduling issue. That’s not a learning issue.

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If it should take your students

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Thomas J Tobin: an hour to respond to this, but it takes somebody an hour and a half to respond. But they get it right. Does that mean they’re less intelligent than the people who did it in an hour? It just means they’re slower or the other people are faster. So when we think about time limits, time limits are arbitrary and artificial barriers that we put on things for administrative reasons.

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Thomas J Tobin: You can take a time limit office stuff. You can allow students enough time to do what they’re doing.

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Thomas J Tobin: Second, lower due date pressure instructors. You should allow late submissions, even if you lower the grade for such things. I don’t. But you should do what you do.

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Thomas J Tobin: Due date pressure just means that if I have to turn it in by noon today.

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Thomas J Tobin: or I get a 0, I’m going to turn in something.

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Thomas J Tobin: and the something is probably going to be, hey, chat Gpt, write me a quick essay, or let me buy one from an essay mill, or let me cheat, or or take a shortcut. That’s where the pressure comes in. If we say you will get your feedback best if you hand it in by noon today.

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Thomas J Tobin: and I need to move ahead with everybody in the class. So you know the real honest, the Gosh deadline and the Co. The the grade goes down is a few days away. That means that your students are much more likely to say to you. Oh, hey! Something came up, and I’m really stuck. Can we figure something out? And the answer almost always is, yeah, sure. Take a couple of extra days. I’d rather see your best work than your rushed work.

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Thomas J Tobin: 3 lower grade anxiety

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Thomas J Tobin: spread out the points across your activities and avoid having one big thing carry enough points to possibly wreck someone’s final grade

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or consider minimalist grading. Peter Elbow is a wonderful theorist on this one, where you have a scale that goes for 0 1, 2, and 3,

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Thomas J Tobin: and those the numbers are more meaningful in terms of the feedback rather than Oh, what’s the difference between an 88% and an 87%? By the way, I don’t know

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Thomas J Tobin: or try something like specifications grading. Or Linda Nielsen is a wonderful theorist in this regard. If you want to read more where

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Thomas J Tobin: students say, here’s what I want to get out of the class. And can we focus on those things in your responses to me in your assessment and grading, or even ungrading? Jesse Stomel is a wonderful person to read on this, where we do away with numerical and letter grades entirely for our students, and just give them feedback on how well they’re doing.

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Thomas J Tobin: And then, at the end of the term, if the institution wants to have a grade, you ask the student what grade do you think you are? And then you think? What grade do you think they earned and come to an agreement with the student about the grade that they would give themselves? That puts the motivation back onto the student rather than you being the arbiter who is, you know, guarding the door kind of stuff.

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Thomas J Tobin: and the last one number 4, lower communication, anxiety explicitly. Tell students that you’re open to hearing about the challenges they face. give them multiple ways for making contact. If things don’t go as planned in their lives actually say that you’re willing to accept late work, offer extensions. Think of accepting revised work, whatever you’re willing to do, say it so that students don’t feel that you’re unapproachable, and they would have no choice but to make the grade any way they can.

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And this is where we have sort of powerful templates and defaults that can quietly change

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Thomas J Tobin: the dynamics in our assessment and in our classrooms.

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Caleb Curfman: Yeah, no, that is fantastic. The I like the 4 very practical tips of of what we can do, especially, you know, this is being recorded in June, and so, maybe, as people are getting ready for their their fall semester a chance to look at some of these things and find ways to implement these. But the and the end result really is

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Caleb Curfman: the pressure right. It’s it’s this added pressure. And that’s something that I think we can all find ways to either relate to. I know we all do. think of the, you know, get even getting grades. And at the end of the semester, whatever happens to be, you know, all these time things.

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Caleb Curfman: So I like to give listeners at the end of every episode like one specific thing that they can do tomorrow. And I kind of I’m cheating because I’m giving you yours, because I think it’s one of the most powerful things that I have read of your work.

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Caleb Curfman: and I was wondering if you’d be able to share with listeners, the plus one mentality, the the the one in terms of for content, whatever happens to be, because absolutely yeah, for the, for those I get overwhelmed. I think it’s a great way to get people started. So take it away. Well, I’ll actually give you a plus one on the plus one concept, and that’s a good way that we can wrap up our conversation listeners when we think about universal design for learning. There are 3

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Thomas J Tobin: broad principles to it, give people multiple means of

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Thomas J Tobin: getting engaged. taking on representations of information

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Thomas J Tobin: and then showing what they know assessment and those kinds of things. But when you say that to your colleagues they can think, oh, this is a huge framework, and there’s 31 checkpoints that go underneath it. So the simplest way that I found to start thinking about

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Thomas J Tobin: inclusive design and universal design for learning. I call it plus one thinking. If there’s one way that a learning interaction happens now

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Thomas J Tobin: make just one more way, so we could get

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Thomas J Tobin: so bogged down in trying to say.

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Thomas J Tobin: Oh, I have to have an alternative for visual challenges and people with hearing loss, and people who have motor skills, deficiencies, and all those kinds of things

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Thomas J Tobin: simplify it to make one more way. If there is one way for people to interact with materials, with each other, with the instructor, with support, staff with the community. If there is one way that happens now one path.

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Thomas J Tobin: make another path. So if you’ve got a whole bunch of text on your slides from your Powerpoints that you’ve been using for 10 years. make a quick audio explainer that shares what that information is, give the same information in more than one way.

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Now.

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Thomas J Tobin: as a last tip, because this podcast is about assessment.

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Thomas J Tobin: Also think about the difference between assessment of learning and assessment as learning.

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This is how I get to grading fewer things.

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Thomas J Tobin: Assessment of learning happens after the learning is done. This is when I’m asking my students to take a midterm examination or create a project, or otherwise demonstrate their final understanding of something. That’s the stuff that gets graded. That’s the stuff that goes into the official transcript somewhere, and there are very few of those moments in a college course.

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Thomas J Tobin: The majority of assessment that I do is assessment as learning.

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Thomas J Tobin: Here’s a pre quiz, so that you can check your knowledge and see where you’re strong, and where you’re struggling so that you can focus your study efforts on the struggling part, and for those of you who say they won’t do it if it isn’t graded. Well, I have that through a back door way, right? If I have 10 practice quizzes for my students to do, and they’re not graded. I say, if you do 9 of these quizzes, regardless of how well you do on them.

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Thomas J Tobin: you’ll earn 5% of the final grade. so there’s

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Thomas J Tobin: consequence to it, but the individual efforts. You could screw it up royally, you could fail at it, be bad at it, and come back to it again and again, and continue to improve your practice without consequence.

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Thomas J Tobin: And that’s what I want. I want students to be able to practice, study, try, collaborate in ways that has an intrinsic motivation for them.

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Thomas J Tobin: knowing that at the end they’re going to have to

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Thomas J Tobin: do something in a graded fashion, or it’s going to be for the course credit.

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Thomas J Tobin: But getting them to that point is the difference between assessment of learning few of those, and assessment as learning, using, testing, and assessment as a means for students to check themselves, to figure out where they are and how they’re going along

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Thomas J Tobin: a wonderful starting point. Listeners, to wrap up our conversation. Here is the website, udl on campus.org.

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These are lots of good examples from many fields as well as the research that explains how Udl actually works to lower barriers and create expert learners

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Thomas J Tobin: also check out Lilian knave’s podcast over@thinkudl.org as well. She has guests on there who are actually doing universal design for learning in their real world courses, labs, and other learning spaces across higher education.

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Thomas J Tobin: And of course, if you want to check out my work. I’m over at Thomas J. tobin.com. It’s been a pleasure Caleb, to talk with you today and listeners. Thank you for being here on the podcast I hope you’re taking away one concrete thing, and I’d love to talk to you and hear your experiences as well. My contact information is on my website.

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fantastic. And I will put all of the information in the show notes on my website, and we’ll get all that through great resources. Thank you so much for joining, and until next time listeners have a great day.