CALEB CURFMAN
All right, welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Assess Without the Stress. I’m your host, Caleb Kerfman, and I’m so excited that you are here today, to listen to what I think is going to be a very important And a very interesting conversation. We are, at this point, at the end of one semester, probably moving into another for some of you, maybe you have just started. And something that is always at front of mind for me. is, how do I reach the students that I have? You know, we’ve talked a lot about, When you design a course. many times we might make the mistake of trying to design courses perfectly for us. You know, if I was taking this class, and we are the experts in the course. And not necessarily looking at who are our students? How can we, you know, embrace our students and our community of students in the best possible way? And that is something that we haven’t talked about as much on this podcast, so We are going to be looking at neurodiverse supports. How do we do this? How do we work with our Students, how do we how do we help students? How do we help ourselves as we move through teaching and learning, understanding more and more about the brain, which is just exciting? And I am so happy to have Megan Kohler here today. And so, Megan, would you be willing to give a brief introduction of yourself?
MEGAN KOHLER
Sure, hello everyone. This is Megan Kohler speaking. And just for reference, I am a blonde female with fair skin, bluish hazel eyes, and I’m wearing my Sort of black and white speckled glasses with a headset, a white blouse, and a cranberry-colored cardigan. I am a learning designer at Penn State University, and my primary focus is on how do we enhance our teaching and learning experiences. But I have a very special focus, I really am very passionate about supporting neurodiverse learners, and that’s where a large part of my work and my research has taken me over the past few years, and so I’m really excited to be here today and to have this conversation. So, thanks for having me on the show, Caleb.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yes, fantastic. Well, let’s let’s jump right into it. you talk about how important, you know, you have a very special, focus. Would you give us, you know, being that I am a historian, give me give me the give me the story. How how did you become interested? How did you, find this passion? Because I really feel, you know, for those of us that work in this In this type of research. it’s a passion, and it usually comes from somewhere. So so where did you what is your origin story?
MEGAN KOHLER
That’s a great question. Yeah, my origin story starts with my daughter. When she was only 2 years old, we, were taking her to this really fantastic, Montessori daycare, and we had been going in, and they’d been telling us all of these amazing things about her. She’s so bright, she’s so amazing, she’s got this brilliant mind about her, and at 2 years old, they’re picking up on this, and they said, but you know what? We’ve also noticed some other interesting things. Would you be willing to come in and have a conversation with us? And so, there was a part of me that was, you know, walking into the building, and I’m just like, oh, they’re gonna tell me that she’s brilliant, and she’s, like, ready to skip into, like, grade school, and she’s, like, the next Doogie Hauser, and that’s not how the conversation went at all. They said We’ve noticed some things about your daughter. That are a little different. And they started going through This list of behaviors. And as the conversation went on, my heart just started to sink. Because I didn’t know a lot about neurodiversity at that time, And then cue the mom guilt, which I think is something that A lot of parents went through at a certain period of time, in which you kind of sit there and you think, oh my gosh, did I do something wrong when I was pregnant with her? Did I cause this? And it took us a really long time to get a formal diagnosis for her condition. But it was because of that that I started down this pathway. Because when I started looking at the types of support that was available for neurodiverse learners, There’s so much support in K-12. But then once a student graduates and goes off to college, there was not a lot. Now, over the past 8 years. this has blossomed, right? We’ve seen so much information come out, and I think that that’s another reason why I’m so impassioned about this work, is because it’s all over the place, right? So, and Caleb, I think you can attest to this, you’ve seen some things out there that, you know, some of it seems right, some of it seems a little off, and some of it’s just you’re not quite sure what to do with it.
CALEB CURFMAN
No, absolutely, you know, and with that, you know, before we continue on your journey, seeing the last 8 years, and I think that’s a really good indicator, you know, we have seen so many works published, so much work going into understanding What what it’s like not only to be a educator, but also about families, about, you know, how does a family work through, many of the challenges that We don’t necessarily see on a daily basis, right? And And when it comes to understanding how Neurodivergence, you know, neurodiverse learners how they their thought process works. One thing that I think was perhaps a little damaging earlier on. is that we were trying really hard to put it in a box, because educators are really good at having systems, right? And so. Okay, if you if you fit this, now you are this. I am so glad to hear that now we understand more, I’m not gonna say we understand, but we understand more about the spectrum of experience, how every individual has a unique experience, and although that could seem very overwhelming. It also is very probably validating as well, when you don’t need to completely meet those boxes. And so you were talking about, you know, the daycare going through, kind of, this list. And So that’s where we kind of left off, but I’m curious, you know, how did that move to kind of what you’re doing now in the higher ed realm?
MEGAN KOHLER
Yeah, Sue I guess really what what sparked this work in particular off was the fact that, once I started researching neurodiversity and understanding a little bit better what it meant, and what the different types of needs are. I started to get A little frustrated, to be perfectly honest, because It very quickly Scaled to, well, now everybody’s talking about neurodiversity, and which is a good thing, because we need to have these conversations so that we can get to a place of understanding. But It was it was like you were saying, it was put into boxes, right? So, these are the strategies that you use to support learners with ADHD. These are the strategies you use to support learners with autism. And for a long time, those have been the two primary focal points of neurodiversity. And the reality is it’s so so much bigger and so much broader than that. You know, So both autism and ADHD fit into our understanding of a clinical, diagnosis of neurodiversity. But there’s also applied, which is our dyslexia and our dyscalculia. But then we also have, the acquired conditions, so PTSD, stroke. And one of the things that I want to highlight, really, for anybody listening, is well, so let me ask you this question. So, when I when I say PTSD, what type what population does your brain immediately go to?
CALEB CURFMAN
Immediately, it will go to probably military service.
MEGAN KOHLER
Exactly, exactly. But have you ever thought of somebody who has or who has fought and survived a battle with cancer as having PTSD? What about a mother who had an extremely traumatic birthing process? Right? So our understanding of how neuro of what encompasses neurodiversity and what fits under that umbrella is so much broader, and people aren’t talking about that. People are so focused on the ADHD and the autism. And we just we we need to we need to broaden that understanding. We need to be having conversations about all of these populations. Because when you’re only designing for ADHD or autism, you’re leaving all of these other people out of the conversation. And that’s that’s not inclusive.
CALEB CURFMAN
Absolutely, you know, and I’m glad you bring that up for a few different reasons. First of all, just to broaden even my understanding of where PTSD, you know, where that might even fall. You know, thinking about you know, more than than, you know, somebody that was maybe in active duty, but also looking at individuals who experience traumatic events in life all around, right? And what that might be. But also. I like that you bring up that we have really had a focus, and that focus has been great, right? At one point, it’s like, it’s great that we have everyone talking about it. On the other hand, it’s like, now we’re leaving out a different population, right? Another population is being missed. And so How can we Because I am a eternal optimist. How can we try to start the conversations that need to happen. How can we And I’m thinking very practically. As instructors of students in higher education. What is something that you can help us with as a learning designer? You know, how can you help us so that we can we can see this broader way, but maybe even broader course design? from the start. One thing that really drew me into UDL and some of these practices is that I realized, and I don’t mean this in a bad way, but I didn’t have to, quote, worry about accommodations anymore, because a lot of the things that were needed, more time, multiple ways of showing their students’ learning process, multiple forms of assessment, multiple forms of getting content, I was already incorporating that, so that when a student came with an accommodation letter. I would meet with them, and they’d say, oh, you’re already doing this. Everything is, you know, accessible. Everything is this, is that. what can we do? So that is a very long way of saying, what can we do as instructors to get this moving? Because I think this is a very important Mission? it will not be done. You know, one thing that I guess if I have a little bit of a gripe as well, it is when people say, you know, kind of wash their hands and say, it’s done, you know, we are completely accessible, everything is good. No, it is a process. So, what would you say we can do Next.
MEGAN KOHLER
Yeah, so I think that you hit the nail on the head with that. Like, people people want to And I don’t think it’s driven from a perspective of not caring. I think it’s just that people have so much going on. that when you you tell them I’ve seen I’ve had these exact conversations with faculty, and they’ve been like, oh my goodness, you tell me that there’s this one other thing that now I have to do this too? I’m already carrying or trying to balance all of these 10 million other things, and now you’re just adding one more to that to that list of things that I have to carry, so I don’t think that people necessarily look for that quick fix, if you will, or the checkbox, from a place of, dismissal or of not caring. I think it’s just people are so overloaded. And so that’s, I think, a great segue, actually, into the work that I’m doing, because that’s that’s my goal, is I want to, provide people with models and frameworks that they can implement And like you said, the work is never done. But to implement a framework that provides that guidance in terms of, okay, well, here you have these neurodiverse learners in your classroom. how do we accommodate the ADHD while we’re also trying to accommodate the autism, while we’re also trying to accommodate the dyscalculia, as well as the PTSD, and then the list goes on and on. And when I just want to make a point really quickly, is that when you try to focus on one specific condition, like the ADHD or autism. You’re not taking into consideration Any of those that overlap. with other types of conditions, right? And, there’s some really great statistics out there. So there’s, I don’t know if people know this, but there’s approximately a 20% to 80% overlap. just between ADHD and autism. Right? So, when you aim for one of those, you’re you’re not entirely supporting that person holistically. Another great statistic is there’s 12% overlap between ADHD and Tourette’s. Right? So how many people have thought of a student who has Tourette’s in their classroom? I have not seen a lot of conversations around that condition, but it’s definitely a neurodiverse condition, and it fits under that umbrella, and we need to be talking about it. So, to come full circle and answer your question, I’ve created a framework, And, its working title right now is Neurodiverse Support Framework, but that may change, but regardless, the information’s on my website, so if people want to go and check it out, they can. But really, this model is designed to provide a holistic understanding of what it means to support neurodiverse learners, right? So, it’s very akin to what UDL tries to achieve, but my focus is specifically on the neurodiverse population, and so there’s seven critical areas of that. So, first is the foundational principles. We start off with things like the executive functions. And I remember one time I was at a conference speaking, and there was a woman that I was sitting next to, and she’s like, oh, you talk about neurodiversity, too? She’s like, I’ve been researching neurodiversity, and I am so excited about this, and she starts talking about all of these strategies for ADHD, and then she was like, and did you know they also have challenges with working memory? And I was like, yes! Yes, they do! In fact. That should actually be our starting point, right? So all of those executive functions, the working memory, the planning and prioritization, organization. all of those things, we need to start there. And the reason why we start there is because there’s so much research to back up the fact that many people with neurodiverse conditions and many people who are, neurotypical, and we could have a conversation about that term later on. But we’ll use that for context, for people who may still be getting acquainted with neurodiversity. But there’s there’s a lot of research that indicates that Those are the skills that, when we think about providing them with support to succeed in academia, that’s where we need to start.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yes, absolutely, and and, you know, just starting there, with Understanding the steps to do something. There has been a lot of work in the teaching and learning realm about You know, making it very clear, the process. How do we how do we do an assignment? How do we set it up? And, you know, there was some really good work. I’m going to link obviously, I’m going to link your your website, but I’m also going to link, you know, a few things I’ll mention here. The TILT framework, talking about.
MEGAN KOHLER
Yeah. Perfect.
CALEB CURFMAN
You know, going through And at first, I thought. Well, I never needed to know why I was doing something. I figured it was to get a grade. But then, when I started implementing the idea of putting here’s the purpose to the assignment. It was amazing how students started to I don’t like the word buy-in, but they were buying into the process in a way of, oh, I need to do this, so then I can do that, and then the next thing. And those were things that were happening in my head as the instructor, I was designing this. But I never said it was almost like I was keeping it behind a curtain. And so, one of the things that you’re bringing out right there at the beginning. Is make it very clear to students why they’re doing something, but also what steps do they need to do to get there? So, fantastic, yeah.
MEGAN KOHLER
Yeah, absolutely. Relevance, interest, so a lot of neurodiverse learners are interest-based, so exactly, if they if they want to go into a certain field, sometimes helping to to make that connection between, well, this is this is why this is relevant to you as you think about your future career. Like, that enough that can sometimes be enough to, to bring that engagement in a different way. So yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, once we design for those executive functions, then we need to go and make sure that we’re wrapping in that accessibility piece. Then, after the accessibility, we move on to what I’m calling, a customized approach. And that customized approach, it’s not just about addressing any type of condition-specific things that may be apparent, or that may need, some significant or, some some support behind them. But it’s also about making sure that, things like our language, the language that we use when we’re engaging with these students, so strengths-based language, is definitely a shift that we need to be making. I mean, I think that this is especially important when we start to think about individuals who might have rejection-sensitive dysphoria, also known as RSD. It’s a co-diagnosis of many neurodiverse conditions, although it’s traditionally been linked primarily to ADHD, but I’ve seen a lot of people who have other conditions, and they say, oh, I feel like this applies to me, too. So that’s another really important component, that we wrap in there, and I’m, I’m giving you, like, the nickel tour.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN KOHLER
So then, the next piece of this, has to do with systemic design. and or systemic barriers. And really what we’re talking about there is accommodations, financial considerations for people who are neurodiverse. There are a lot of people that I’ve talked with who Cannot get a formal diagnosis. Because it’s deemed as not medically necessary. Right? Or they’re in a situation where they simply can’t afford it because insurance won’t cover it. And I’ve heard from people in all different contexts that that evaluation can cost anywhere from, $250 to $3,000. So if you think about a student. Who’s already paying hefty fees and tuition and books and everything else that goes along with the academic experience. Rent, food and house, like, food, considerations, Asking them to pay an additional $3,000 to get a diagnosis. Just so that they can get support for them to be successful.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yo.
MEGAN KOHLER
That’s something we need to change.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yes, absolutely. You know, and on that I have, you know. in many parts of the country, I think this is true, not just specific to where I am, but the availability of these resources can also be a challenge. you know, I’m thinking of experiences I’ve heard of, of individuals who are waiting for months. to just be seen by somebody to maybe and that is if they had the money to do that from the beginning, right? Yeah. And so Although we want to and perhaps it is It’s a little easier once we have that diagnosis to know how can we best support a learner. I think a challenge we need to try to face, above the many things I think you’ve you are pointing out, you know, we shouldn’t be having these issues where people cannot get in, they cannot afford to get in, they cannot all those pieces. I think we need to really focus on Designing in a way Regardless of a diagnosis. And I think that’s what I’m seeing a lot with what you’re doing with your framework here.
MEGAN KOHLER
Thank you, I’m so glad that you noticed that, because that’s exactly the goal, right? And the other reason for that is that I think that there are a lot of people who may not necessarily know that they have a condition, I think that there are also people who are afraid. to pursue that pathway, because they’re afraid of what it means. I remember, several years ago, there was a woman who somehow she found out about my work, and she reached out to me on LinkedIn. And she we started having this back-and-forth conversation about how she really believed that she had a condition, but she was terrified to get the diagnosis. Because then she felt like it meant that it had she had to disclose that to all of her colleagues. And we had a really great conversation about, well, it’s a medical condition, so technically that’s your private information. You don’t have to share it. If it’s necessary for you to share with your supervisor, then you can do that, but that’s that’s your private medical information. And so I feel like we left the conversation where she felt much better about her pathway moving forward, but it’s the stigmatization that happens around this is very real, and that’s another thing that we need to take into consideration. So that’s another piece of those systemic barriers that we need to talk about. And then, to kind of move forward with, with some other pieces of that systemic barriers or systemic, or systematic. challenges, there’s also things such as, In education, we call it hidden curriculum, but in the workplace, we call it office politics. Right. So, sometimes it can be really challenging. We know that there’s enough research out there indicating that students who are first generation, Higher education learners. that that notion of a hidden curriculum ends up impacting their experience, right? So, when we’re talking about, individuals who have neurodiverse conditions, a lot of the hidden curriculum is rooted into social understandings. And there’s, again, enough evidence there through the research to indicate to us that there are people with neurodiverse conditions who also have challenges socially, right? So, when we don’t accommodate for things like the hidden curriculum, again, we’re inadvertently reinforcing a barrier that exists, and we need to focus on reducing that as well. So then, once we once we take a look at the systemic barriers, then we can move into sort of the personal belonging piece of the framework. And I think that this is really incredibly important, because we know that if students don’t feel a strong sense of belonging. They’re likely to leave a pro- or leave a course, leave a program, or even leave an institution. Right, and especially when there are so many other things going on right now in academia, like, those enrollments are really important. So if you care about your institution and you care about your enrollments, then you need to be taking the time to make sure that your students Feel a sense of personal belonging while they’re there. And so the three components under personal belonging, and they really sort of parallel what we see under the three components that I mentioned, which all correlate to, learner agency. So, we have validation, and that parallels, those foundational elements, such as the executive functions. And really what we talk about in that validation piece is, relationships. Right, so it’s, things like student-to-student confirmation and social-emotional learning. And here’s something that I really love, and why this I think that this model works really well. I might be a little biased, because I created it. But, it’s all backed in research, right? And here’s the thing that I love, is there there are correlations between things like social-emotional learning. and the development Of our executive functioning skills. Right, so there’s research that demonstrates that when you engage students in those social-emotional learning dynamics, it has a positive impact on the growth and development of those, EF skills for students, so if we start to integrate that into our classroom. Like, we’re just we’re giving them support, not just from the faculty member, but now we’re wrapping their peers into that process as well. So think about even just that piece of it before we go into the other two, like, just think about how much of a transformation that could create in the classroom. Right?
CALEB CURFMAN
Absolutely, and again, and this shouldn’t be a surprise, But it’s it’s things that Are going to be great for everybody in the class, including you as the instructor, right? Great, exactly. And that is And so, in a way, it is almost a little frustrating. It’s like, it has taken this long for us to realize, but, you know, I had a great conversation a couple weeks ago. Talking about K-12? Has done some really good things that seem to end when it gets to the college. And My sister is a second grade teacher, and it’s interesting how much I can gain from that experience. when working at, you know, a college, and I think the more that The more we think about things, whether it is, you know, having that feeling of belonging, the social-emotional learning. you know, why we aren’t bridging that gap, I don’t know, but I’m glad to hear that it is moving, right? We’re starting to accept more of these thoughts, and and I hope that continues. But yeah, just with that first piece. You’re gonna have a wonderful class. I mean. Take the content stuff out, you know, just just having a place where everyone feels like we should be here, we should be here together, and you, all of everybody as you are, we are in this space together. How empowering that can be for all learners.
MEGAN KOHLER
Absolutely, absolutely, and that’s why it’s an integral piece of this approach. Yeah. I feel like it it Think about how How we could create a much better society. If, in our classrooms, We were just teaching people How to be supportive and encouraging of others when they are different from us, when they think differently from us. I mean, that to me is really what an education is about. It’s not just about the acquisition of information or acquiring a degree. It’s about Learning who you are and who you want to become. in the world.
CALEB CURFMAN
Absolutely, and You know, and I I tried my darndest, but I’m not getting it out of here. With a world like we have now, where information can be found very quickly, Yeah. The skills people need to have. are the things that make us uniquely human, more than any other time. What a great opportunity to lean into that. In my, in my practice, you know, I tell my students. I want you to be able to think. I don’t care if you remember exactly when the Battle of Antietam happened. I want you to be able to think about what did that do at that moment? How did that you know, if you look at some evidence, right? And so, thinking about those skills, how do we talk about this? How would we how would we convey this to other people? And I think this framework could be used in so many ways to also understand what are the important skills. They used to call them soft skills, I don’t like that. I think it’s it’s human skills, as odd as that sounds, that we need to be embracing right now, and so I applaud you for bringing that to the forefront of this.
MEGAN KOHLER
Thank you. Yeah, I think that It needs to be something that we take into consideration, like you were saying, not just for everyone, but also very specifically for neurodiverse learners. And I’ll share a statistic with you. I don’t know if you’ve heard this or not, but, Dr. Jelenik, I don’t think I pronounced his name right, but Dr. Jelenik, or Jelenick, he published an article in Psychology Today in which he talked about, The fact that by the age of 10, It is estimated that a child with ADHD receives 20,000 more negative messages. Than their neurotypical peers. That’s by the age of 10.
CALEB CURFMAN
Jeez. Yeah.
MEGAN KOHLER
So, when you think about students who are coming to our classrooms. Like, the age of 10, they haven’t gone through like, they haven’t gone through any of the major teen stuff yet, right? Like, and then now you factor in everything that’s going on in society, like cyberbullying, like, oh my gosh, I had a horrible experience, in high school, and I just can’t even imagine what it’s gonna be like once you feel like you can’t ever get away from it, because it’s not only not only do you have to encounter it during the day when you’re in school, but then now it’s on your phone that you have with you all the time. Like, it’s it’s just The students coming into our classrooms They need this support. They need this type of care. So that’s one one very specific reason why should all be pursuing.
CALEB CURFMAN
Yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN KOHLER
Like this, yeah.
CALEB CURFMAN
And so that’s, you know, and that all really falls under the validation.
MEGAN KOHLER
so after validation, then we progress on to recognition. And what recognition is really about is just kind of openly acknowledging the fact that, people have differences. Right? So that parallels the accessibility piece. And the other thing that we want to think about here is normalization. of those differences, right? So it’s not enough to simply say, okay, well, there’s a student in the class who needs this screen reader, or, students in the class will benefit from having this transcript on these videos, because we tend to think of the students who need those for accommodations, right? And that’s the accessibility piece. But to parallel that, we need to start Normalizing those processes of integrating these into everything that we do, because it’s not just about students with disabilities. And I know that there’s so many disability advocates out there that I’m preaching to the choir on this one. You know, English as a second language students. That’s a great example, very common example for individuals who benefit from the transcripts. But another great example that I like I worked with a faculty member a couple years ago, and we talked about the idea of creating a podcast, or a podcast, not technically a podcast, but a podcast-like listening experience. And so she sat down, and it was an online course, and so she read the content to her students. And she’s a really great speaker, very dynamic, so she’s reading through this content, and it’s just it was like students were getting that, almost like a story-based education, right? Just because of the way that she was presenting the material through the audio tracks. And when you think about it, that’s a great way of normalizing it. We don’t think about that being a way of normalizing accessibility, or maybe I’m sure there’s lots of people who do think about that, especially if they’re in the accessibility space, but I think that there’s a lot of people who don’t. And but it’s normalizing it, because now you’re just kind of saying, well, you know, here’s let’s just let’s just make this a part of our lives, you know? It’s Maybe, yes, it fits under that technical component of accommodation or accessibility, but Everybody has iPhones nowadays, it’s just so much easier for them to download it and listen to the lecture while they’re on the treadmill, or waiting for the bus, or something like that. So yeah, so recognition and normalization And then we we go to that last component under personal belonging, and that has to do with acceptance. And I think one of the things that we really need to focus on here Is that, We kind of have to Take acceptance and define it kind of a little bit differently, based on based more so on our own understanding of what acceptance is, right? Because it’s not always going to be the same for everybody, and I think that that’s something so the example that I like to tie it back to is, you know, we we all have our own various ways of defining success. So what are our various ways of defining acceptance? But alongside of that, we can factor in components like, fast-fail methodologies. Right? So, making sure that we are creating spaces for students of all neurotypes, to feel as though they can they can make a mistake, right? They can, they can, They can explore the content in a way that they are in a safe place, and that they won’t be judged. And it’s not about right or wrong, it’s about the exploration and the journey of what it means to wrestle with this content, because that’s what learning is, right? It’s never just a cut and dry, you know, this is right and this is wrong, although I’m sure that there are a lot of people who might feel that way when they’re evaluating exams. yeah But the whole learning process is a journey, and it’s challenging, and it’s not intended to be something that is easy. It’s difficult, and it’s something that people have to wrestle with in some areas. And in some other areas, it might come very easily. And then we also factor in things like motivation, right, within that acceptance. Like, how do we how do we tap into your, your, unique way of being motivated, right? So, intrinsic, extrinsic, you know, like, what’s gonna be most impactful for you? So, those top two tiers of, acceptance, and customization. That’s where we really, get to spend a little more time focusing on the individual, but, the bottom tiers of, like, validation and, foundational or executive functioning skills, that’s really sort of that broad. Broad stroke of this is what we can do in, in a really big way to create the most impact for the learners in our classrooms.
CALEB CURFMAN
Absolutely. And, you know, you talk about that acceptance piece and the learning process. I get some really funny faces from students when, you know, the first day of class, I say, the first step in learning is failing. What do you mean? This is and it feels like I like to think I am breaking their understanding of education all at once, and then it kind of comes back together. But the idea is You know, so with my assignments, I there’s a lot of revision that goes on, and my whole point is, you’re not if you could get it all right the first time, why would you pay money to take this class? Yes! You’re here to you’re here to try. You’re here to to make mistakes, learn from them, and move forward, right? And And so, I love that that is a huge part of that acceptance as well, because You know, just in general. learning does not happen easily. It might come easier, I would argue. perhaps certain types of teaching practice that I think should be obsolete make it seem like if you’re a good test taker, you can learn anything, but that’s for another day. But really, truly engaging with content. should be challenging in a good way, a good struggle, and to normalize that struggle. One, I’m just thinking of a quick tip. One practical thing that I sometimes do, is I make it very clear when I struggle with something. And I think there’s this idea that we are supposed to be, you know, the professor should know everything. No, that’s not true, right? We know that’s not true, but it’s that feeling sometimes you have, like, oh, I shouldn’t show a mistake. I make it very clear, hey, we’re gonna read this. I had to read it 3 times, and I still don’t really understand it myself. But the process of trying to learn it is what’s important, and I just admit to my students, this was a struggle for me. How did it go for you? And we learn through having that shared experience that Oh, it’s it’s okay to not really know? And in feedback from students. One of the more exciting responses at the end of the class, a student said. I learned that even teachers don’t know everything, and I thought, you know, that could have been looked at as a dig. It was absolutely, like, a badge of, you know, honor for me, because that was the point, is that we’re all learning together. And they followed it up with some other nice things, so I knew they weren’t just, you know, saying it in a mean way. But I thought. that actually moved the needle a little bit, that we can learn as we go. And so. As we’re getting closer to wrapping up. I always want to leave my listeners, you know, the listeners here. with something practical they can do. Because right now, this sounds fantastic, and I’m just gonna be honest, it also, if I wasn’t already in this space a little bit, would be very overwhelming. And so, what what can I do? I am planning on creating a or I’m revamping a class for fall. What are some of those things that I can do as an instructor right now, that that can help me move towards this? Again, remember, it is a process, it’s not something that is ever done, but what are some of those things you think would be big impact right away to help help courses?
MEGAN KOHLER
Yeah, that’s a great question. My suggestion would be to start with those bottom two tiers of the model. So, start by looking at your content, looking at your assessments, and trying to figure out where those executive functions are going to be, things that a student could get tripped upon, right? And then figuring out ways to mitigate that within how you’re presenting that content, or what the expectations are for your students. And I’ll also, Include a point that if you have not already included a statement in your syllabus, a lot of people Include statements about disabilities, but if you do not if you do not yet have something in there about respecting and valuing all forms and, perspectives as, thought as it relates to our thought processes, so really just respecting and understanding that everyone thinks differently. I would strongly encourage you to craft a statement along those lines and include it in your syllabus. Again, it goes back to expectation setting, right? So, And then after after you have that syllabus statement in there, making sure that you’re leveling up, or sort of leveling the playing field with some of those executive functioning skills, and then focus on opportunities to bring those social-emotional learning pieces in. I think if you do that, you are going to see A significant difference, in how your students respond to the dynamic that they’re in. I think it will have a huge impact on them. Well, I know it will, because there’s research to back it up, right?
CALEB CURFMAN
Absolutely, absolutely. No, that is that is fantastic advice. You know, I you know, I’m gonna look at my syllabus, and I’m going to change a few things on the statement. I do have a statement, but just from our conversation, I’m thinking of other ways I can incorporate that. And looking at the assessments, I think that is a really important piece as well. You know, even though I just said that learning is meant to be a bit of a struggle and a challenge, what I mean is the actual content engagement, not what am I supposed to do, right? And so, if we can separate Okay, instructions, if we can make that very clear, and, you know, try to try to explain that, I think that’s gonna go a long ways. Well, this has been a delight. I have I have enjoyed our conversation. I think we could talk a whole lot more on many of these things, and I am probably going to, You know, we’re gonna need to do this again, but how can people who are listening, how can they contact you? I’m gonna put your website on, but where where can people find your stuff, your work?
MEGAN KOHLER
It’s primarily on my website at the current moment. Admittedly, I, whenever I link onto social media, I suddenly start to feel my anxiety spike, but they can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. Anytime I have some big news to share, like a model coming out, or I’m speaking at an event, or something along those lines, I do share that, or I do try to share that. on social media, so that’s a great way to connect and stay in contact with me. Or, if you’re interested in contacting directly with me, the email address that I can be reached at is info at meganchohler.org.
CALEB CURFMAN
Excellent, and I’ll make sure to have that in the show notes as well. Well, thank you, and thank you, everybody, for listening. I hope that you were inspired, as I was, to, you know, even if we’re doing things, and we feel we’re moving in this work, there’s always more we can do, and some of those examples are very meaningful ones, and ones that I it’s making me think differently, so look at that, we’re learning as we go, right? Make sure you like, share, subscribe, all that stuff, and, you know, thank you again I will say I’ve been receiving some wonderful, emails and comments. You can go to CalebKerfman.com. And look at the show notes, and I’ve really appreciated the support, and also the wonderful questions that you have been sending me. So please continue to do that. We’ll continue to grow our community together, and as always, I’m so glad you’re here. Have a great week.
Caleb Curfman 